[fontforge-users] Some monospaced advice needed

Discussion:

Pander

2017-01-04 13:35:52 UTC

Hi all,

I am in need of some advice. With a crowd funding campaign and some
sponsoring from my local government, I have some funding to digitise and
extend a typeface that has been sculpted on statues about 100 years ago.
It has only 13 original letters, so there is a lot of work to do. the
statues and characters are Loading Image...

I already made concept font, but now am going for the final version. My
approach is as follows: use Inkscape for the glyph design and FontForge
for the generation of the font files.

As this is a very geometric monospaced font, I use a log of guides in
Inkscape and made some software in order to sync those guides amongst
the separate Inkscape files. More on that later in another post and I
will present it with the font on FOSDEM 2017.

The biggest challenge I face at the moment is regarding choosing:
- glyph width and horizontal spacing on the right
- glyph height and vertical spacing on the bottom and maybe the top

I am still not sure if I am going to support characters such as Ç and É
in the future. Of course these could be designed in such way with small
counter space at the bottom and top in the glyphs of C and E, resulting
that I do not need to reserve space for this now. Making the vertical
spacing only between the baseline and the bottom of the bounding box and
having all the glyphs going all the way up to the top of the bounding box.

1) I don't mind putting out version that improve over time but bounding
box and spacing I would like to have nailed down from the beginning. Any
advice on this? If there is a similar font which bounding box dimensions
and spacing I could reuse, that would also be beneficial for font
replacement purposes, fall-back and glyph placeholders.

2) Is there a way for FontForge to automatically import glyph designs
from Inkscape? This would save me a lot of manual work each time I have
created of updated glyphs.

3) This typeface would probably also/often used vertically. Is it
possible/advisable to implement specific spacing for vertical usage?

4) But of an Inkscape question, can one in batch mode do per SVG file:
select all objects, convert all objects to paths and merge all paths?

Thanks,

Pander

Abraham Lee

2017-01-04 16:02:25 UTC

Permalink

Hi, Pander!

Post by Pander
Hi all,
I am in need of some advice. With a crowd funding campaign and some
sponsoring from my local government, I have some funding to digitise and
extend a typeface that has been sculpted on statues about 100 years ago.
It has only 13 original letters, so there is a lot of work to do. the
statues and characters are https://i.imgur.com/g5wHIxt.jpg
I already made concept font, but now am going for the final version. My
approach is as follows: use Inkscape for the glyph design and FontForge
for the generation of the font files.
As this is a very geometric monospaced font, I use a log of guides in
Inkscape and made some software in order to sync those guides amongst
the separate Inkscape files. More on that later in another post and I
will present it with the font on FOSDEM 2017.
- glyph width and horizontal spacing on the right
- glyph height and vertical spacing on the bottom and maybe the top
I am still not sure if I am going to support characters such as Ã and Ã
in the future. Of course these could be designed in such way with small
counter space at the bottom and top in the glyphs of C and E, resulting
that I do not need to reserve space for this now. Making the vertical
spacing only between the baseline and the bottom of the bounding box and
having all the glyphs going all the way up to the top of the bounding box.
1) I don't mind putting out version that improve over time but bounding
box and spacing I would like to have nailed down from the beginning. Any
advice on this? If there is a similar font which bounding box dimensions
and spacing I could reuse, that would also be beneficial for font
replacement purposes, fall-back and glyph placeholders.
2) Is there a way for FontForge to automatically import glyph designs
from Inkscape? This would save me a lot of manual work each time I have
created of updated glyphs.
3) This typeface would probably also/often used vertically. Is it
possible/advisable to implement specific spacing for vertical usage?
select all objects, convert all objects to paths and merge all paths?

This sounds like a fun project. Congrats on the commissioned work!

For the spacing/width, I'd recommend following the example of the images
and space the letters horizontally like they are spaced vertically. In
other words, measure the vertical space between letters (let's call it
"sp"), divide by two (so each side bearing gets something), and determine
the advance width based on the largest glyph width + sp. Then, I'd
optically center each glyph within that allowable horizontal space. I'm
afraid I don't have much experience with vertical widths, though. Sorry.

I'm not aware of anything that will import a batch of svg files, but if
you're willing to work with FontForge's python scripting abilities, I can
probably cook up a function that will do the trick. Perhaps you can send me
a file or two so I know how the svg files are structured? Once I understand
how/where the paths are constructed, I should be able to convert those to
FontForge curves in their appropriate glyph code points (provided you have
the files named to facilitate that).

Best,
Abraham

Pander

2017-01-11 14:03:51 UTC

Permalink

Post by Abraham Lee
Hi, Pander!
Hi all,
I am in need of some advice. With a crowd funding campaign and some
sponsoring from my local government, I have some funding to digitise and
extend a typeface that has been sculpted on statues about 100 years ago.
It has only 13 original letters, so there is a lot of work to do. the
statues and characters are https://i.imgur.com/g5wHIxt.jpg
<https://i.imgur.com/g5wHIxt.jpg>
I already made concept font, but now am going for the final version. My
approach is as follows: use Inkscape for the glyph design and FontForge
for the generation of the font files.
As this is a very geometric monospaced font, I use a log of guides in
Inkscape and made some software in order to sync those guides amongst
the separate Inkscape files. More on that later in another post and I
will present it with the font on FOSDEM 2017.
- glyph width and horizontal spacing on the right
- glyph height and vertical spacing on the bottom and maybe the top
I am still not sure if I am going to support characters such as Ç and É
in the future. Of course these could be designed in such way with small
counter space at the bottom and top in the glyphs of C and E, resulting
that I do not need to reserve space for this now. Making the vertical
spacing only between the baseline and the bottom of the bounding box and
having all the glyphs going all the way up to the top of the bounding box.
1) I don't mind putting out version that improve over time but bounding
box and spacing I would like to have nailed down from the beginning. Any
advice on this? If there is a similar font which bounding box dimensions
and spacing I could reuse, that would also be beneficial for font
replacement purposes, fall-back and glyph placeholders.
2) Is there a way for FontForge to automatically import glyph designs
from Inkscape? This would save me a lot of manual work each time I have
created of updated glyphs.
3) This typeface would probably also/often used vertically. Is it
possible/advisable to implement specific spacing for vertical usage?
select all objects, convert all objects to paths and merge all paths?
This sounds like a fun project. Congrats on the commissioned work!
For the spacing/width, I'd recommend following the example of the images
and space the letters horizontally like they are spaced vertically. In
other words, measure the vertical space between letters (let's call it
"sp"), divide by two (so each side bearing gets something), and
determine the advance width based on the largest glyph width + sp. Then,
I'd optically center each glyph within that allowable horizontal space.
I'm afraid I don't have much experience with vertical widths, though. Sorry.

Hopefully, someone else can give me some pointer on this.

Post by Abraham Lee
I'm not aware of anything that will import a batch of svg files, but if
you're willing to work with FontForge's python scripting abilities, I
can probably cook up a function that will do the trick.

That would be very helpful and I am sure more users would find it
beneficial.

Perhaps you can

Post by Abraham Lee
send me a file or two so I know how the svg files are structured? Once I
understand how/where the paths are constructed, I should be able to
convert those to FontForge curves in their appropriate glyph code points
(provided you have the files named to facilitate that).

File name is made out of:
- 4 or 5 hexidecimal digits for the codepoint
- an underscore
- optionally the character it represents (to keep it human-readable)
- the file extension .svg

Examples of file names are:
- 0041_A.svg
- 002E_..svg
- 002F_.svg (slash /, not practical in file names)
- 005C_.svg (backslash \, not practical in file names)
- 0132_Ĳ.svg
- 1F4EF_📯.svg
- 1F511_.svg

The files with only paths are in Inkscape SVG of 1000 x 1000 px with the
baseline at 200 px and work when importing in FontForge.

I will send you some example files, also with non-path objects.

Best,

Pander

Post by Abraham Lee
Best,
Abraham
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Pander

2017-01-11 20:05:37 UTC

Permalink

Post by Pander

Hopefully, someone else can give me some pointer on this.

That would be very helpful and I am sure more users would find it
beneficial.
Perhaps you can

- 4 or 5 hexidecimal digits for the codepoint
- an underscore
- optionally the character it represents (to keep it human-readable)
- the file extension .svg
- 0041_A.svg
- 002E_..svg
- 002F_.svg (slash /, not practical in file names)
- 005C_.svg (backslash \, not practical in file names)
- 0132_Ĳ.svg
- 1F4EF_📯.svg
- 1F511_.svg
The files with only paths are in Inkscape SVG of 1000 x 1000 px with the
baseline at 200 px and work when importing in FontForge.
I will send you some example files, also with non-path objects.

Some more features are that in a bulk import, all existing glyphs should
be cleared (as an option perhaps) before any import is done.

Another feature is that references should be supported. An example is
Loading Image...

Where U+002D is copied as a reference
and pasted on U+2010. In its turn U+2010 is copied as a reference and
pasted on U+2011. So there is some nesting. This info I have already in
an tab-separated file which holds the Unicode codepoints.

By the way, I have noticed something in FontForge and am wondering if
this is a bug or not. When, in the main window, I copy a glyph as
reference and paste it on an existing glyph (that is a reference or not)
it clears that glyph and then does the paste. When I do the same copy
ref in the main window but paste in an opened glyph window, the existing
content is not cleared before the paste takes place. Is this how it is
meant to work?

Post by Pander
Best,
Pander

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Anton Sherwood

2017-01-11 20:45:15 UTC

Permalink

Post by Abraham Lee
Hi, Pander!
[45 lines quoted thrice]

This latest post has one hundred lines that we've already seen (most of
them more than once) *before* the first line of new content. My screen
only has room for fifty-seven lines of small type.

Quoting relevant context is good; quoting *everything*, so that a reader
has to play detective to determine which part is being responded to, is
not so good.

[three copies of the list's footer]

--
*\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org

Dave Crossland

2017-01-04 22:40:28 UTC

Permalink

Hi

On Jan 4, 2017 1:36 PM, "Pander" <***@users.sourceforge.net> wrote:

Hi all,

I am in need of some advice. With a crowd funding campaign and some
sponsoring from my local government, I have some funding to digitise and
extend a typeface that has been sculpted on statues about 100 years ago.
It has only 13 original letters, so there is a lot of work to do. the
statues and characters are https://i.imgur.com/g5wHIxt.jpg

Awesome! Will the result be licensed under ofl?

I already made concept font, but now am going for the final version. My
approach is as follows: use Inkscape for the glyph design and FontForge
for the generation of the font files.

As this is a very geometric monospaced font, I use a log of guides in
Inkscape and made some software in order to sync those guides amongst
the separate Inkscape files. More on that later in another post and I
will present it with the font on FOSDEM 2017.

Nice! Sounds similar to the font editor that Felipe Sanchez worked on many
years ago ð

The biggest challenge I face at the moment is regarding choosing:
- glyph width and horizontal spacing on the right

Sadly making a monospace font is harder than a proportionally spaced one,
since the letter forms must be stretched past their natural proportions to
fit the fixed space.

- glyph height and vertical spacing on the bottom and maybe the top

I am still not sure if I am going to support characters such as Ã and Ã
in the future. Of course these could be designed in such way with small
counter space at the bottom and top in the glyphs of C and E, resulting
that I do not need to reserve space for this now. Making the vertical
spacing only between the baseline and the bottom of the bounding box and
having all the glyphs going all the way up to the top of the bounding box.

You can safely draw about 120% of the upm "bounding box"

1) I don't mind putting out version that improve over time but bounding
box and spacing I would like to have nailed down from the beginning. Any
advice on this?

Forget about it. ;)

Put beta or "one" in the family name to show early releases are such and
after you think it's nailed only then remove it.

If there is a similar font which bounding box dimensions
and spacing I could reuse, that would also be beneficial for font
replacement purposes, fall-back and glyph placeholders.

If your font is going to be ofl, then any ofl font can work for this purpose

2) Is there a way for FontForge to automatically import glyph designs
from Inkscape? This would save me a lot of manual work each time I have
created of updated glyphs.

A simple Python script will do the job

3) This typeface would probably also/often used vertically. Is it
possible/advisable to implement specific spacing for vertical usage?

You can look at the bungee font sources on github to see about this. But
it's a UFO/afdko project, not sfd/Fontforge one.

4) But of an Inkscape question, can one in batch mode do per SVG file:
select all objects, convert all objects to paths and merge all paths?

I expect it is possible

Good luck!!

Thanks,

Pander

------------------------------------------------------------
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Pander

2017-01-11 20:10:18 UTC

Permalink

Post by Pander
Hi
Hi all,
I am in need of some advice. With a crowd funding campaign and some
sponsoring from my local government, I have some funding to digitise and
extend a typeface that has been sculpted on statues about 100 years ago.
It has only 13 original letters, so there is a lot of work to do. the
statues and characters are https://i.imgur.com/g5wHIxt.jpg
<https://i.imgur.com/g5wHIxt.jpg>
Awesome! Will the result be licensed under ofl?

Yes!

Post by Pander
I already made concept font, but now am going for the final version. My
approach is as follows: use Inkscape for the glyph design and FontForge
for the generation of the font files.
As this is a very geometric monospaced font, I use a log of guides in
Inkscape and made some software in order to sync those guides amongst
the separate Inkscape files. More on that later in another post and I
will present it with the font on FOSDEM 2017.
Nice! Sounds similar to the font editor that Felipe Sanchez worked on
many years ago 😄
- glyph width and horizontal spacing on the right
Sadly making a monospace font is harder than a proportionally spaced
one, since the letter forms must be stretched past their natural
proportions to fit the fixed space.
- glyph height and vertical spacing on the bottom and maybe the top
I am still not sure if I am going to support characters such as Ç and É
in the future. Of course these could be designed in such way with small
counter space at the bottom and top in the glyphs of C and E, resulting
that I do not need to reserve space for this now. Making the vertical
spacing only between the baseline and the bottom of the bounding box and
having all the glyphs going all the way up to the top of the bounding box.
You can safely draw about 120% of the upm "bounding box"
1) I don't mind putting out version that improve over time but bounding
box and spacing I would like to have nailed down from the beginning. Any
advice on this?
Forget about it. ;)
Put beta or "one" in the family name to show early releases are such and
after you think it's nailed only then remove it.

Thanks

Post by Pander
If there is a similar font which bounding box dimensions
and spacing I could reuse, that would also be beneficial for font
replacement purposes, fall-back and glyph placeholders.
If your font is going to be ofl, then any ofl font can work for this purpose
2) Is there a way for FontForge to automatically import glyph designs
from Inkscape? This would save me a lot of manual work each time I have
created of updated glyphs.
A simple Python script will do the job

Abraham is going to help me out with this. If you have any specific
pointers on this or for him, please share them.

Post by Pander
3) This typeface would probably also/often used vertically. Is it
possible/advisable to implement specific spacing for vertical usage?
You can look at the bungee font sources on github to see about this. But
it's a UFO/afdko project, not sfd/Fontforge one.

Thanks, I am looking into this. So far I can continue designing the
glyphs and adjust the horizontal and vertical spacing later on. In the
worst case scenario I will have to run some sed commands on my SVG files.

Post by Pander
select all objects, convert all objects to paths and merge all paths?
I expect it is possible

I have provided Abraham with some example files to work with.

Post by Pander
Good luck!!

Thanks. This entire month, and perhaps a bit more, I will be working
with FontForge and Inkscape hope to contribute to these projects as well.

Best,

Pander

Post by Pander
Thanks,
Pander
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s***@att.net

2017-01-05 14:21:24 UTC

Permalink

Post by Pander
Hi all,
I am in need of some advice. With a crowd funding campaign and some
sponsoring from my local government, I have some funding to digitise and
extend a typeface that has been sculpted on statues about 100 years ago.
It has only 13 original letters, so there is a lot of work to do. the
statues and characters are https://i.imgur.com/g5wHIxt.jpg
I already made concept font, but now am going for the final version. My
approach is as follows: use Inkscape for the glyph design and FontForge
for the generation of the font files.
As this is a very geometric monospaced font, I use a log of guides in
Inkscape and made some software in order to sync those guides amongst
the separate Inkscape files. More on that later in another post and I
will present it with the font on FOSDEM 2017.
- glyph width and horizontal spacing on the right
- glyph height and vertical spacing on the bottom and maybe the top
I am still not sure if I am going to support characters such as Ç and É
in the future. Of course these could be designed in such way with small
counter space at the bottom and top in the glyphs of C and E, resulting
that I do not need to reserve space for this now. Making the vertical
spacing only between the baseline and the bottom of the bounding box and
having all the glyphs going all the way up to the top of the bounding box.
1) I don't mind putting out version that improve over time but bounding
box and spacing I would like to have nailed down from the beginning. Any
advice on this? If there is a similar font which bounding box dimensions
and spacing I could reuse, that would also be beneficial for font
replacement purposes, fall-back and glyph placeholders.
2) Is there a way for FontForge to automatically import glyph designs
from Inkscape? This would save me a lot of manual work each time I have
created of updated glyphs.
3) This typeface would probably also/often used vertically. Is it
possible/advisable to implement specific spacing for vertical usage?
select all objects, convert all objects to paths and merge all paths?
Thanks,
Pander

It's an Art Deco font, and so I thought it might already exist.
Mirabile dictu, I found a near relative in only about 5 minutes'
searching. Check out fontspace.com, Autumn Deco font ( 2002)
by La Vie Dansante. I'd guess that she used "your" font as a
model.

Anton Sherwood

2017-01-06 23:06:15 UTC

Permalink

Post by s***@att.net

Post by Pander
I am in need of some advice. With a crowd funding campaign and some
sponsoring from my local government, I have some funding to digitise and
extend a typeface that has been sculpted on statues about 100 years ago.
It has only 13 original letters, so there is a lot of work to do. the
statues and characters are https://i.imgur.com/g5wHIxt.jpg

(39 lines deleted as irrelevant to what follows)

Post by s***@att.net
It's an Art Deco font, and so I thought it might already exist.
Mirabile dictu, I found a near relative in only about 5 minutes'
searching. Check out fontspace.com, Autumn Deco font ( 2002)
by La Vie Dansante. I'd guess that she used "your" font as a
model.

To save the next reader some keystrokes:
http://www.fontspace.com/la-vie-dansante/autumn-deco

(Notice how you didn't have to scroll to find my response?)

--
*\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org

Pander

2017-01-11 20:18:19 UTC

Permalink

Post by s***@att.net

Post by Pander
Hi all,
I am in need of some advice. With a crowd funding campaign and some
sponsoring from my local government, I have some funding to digitise and
extend a typeface that has been sculpted on statues about 100 years ago.
It has only 13 original letters, so there is a lot of work to do. the
statues and characters are https://i.imgur.com/g5wHIxt.jpg
I already made concept font, but now am going for the final version. My
approach is as follows: use Inkscape for the glyph design and FontForge
for the generation of the font files.
As this is a very geometric monospaced font, I use a log of guides in
Inkscape and made some software in order to sync those guides amongst
the separate Inkscape files. More on that later in another post and I
will present it with the font on FOSDEM 2017.
- glyph width and horizontal spacing on the right
- glyph height and vertical spacing on the bottom and maybe the top
I am still not sure if I am going to support characters such as Ç and É
in the future. Of course these could be designed in such way with small
counter space at the bottom and top in the glyphs of C and E, resulting
that I do not need to reserve space for this now. Making the vertical
spacing only between the baseline and the bottom of the bounding box and
having all the glyphs going all the way up to the top of the bounding box.
1) I don't mind putting out version that improve over time but bounding
box and spacing I would like to have nailed down from the beginning. Any
advice on this? If there is a similar font which bounding box dimensions
and spacing I could reuse, that would also be beneficial for font
replacement purposes, fall-back and glyph placeholders.
2) Is there a way for FontForge to automatically import glyph designs
from Inkscape? This would save me a lot of manual work each time I have
created of updated glyphs.
3) This typeface would probably also/often used vertically. Is it
possible/advisable to implement specific spacing for vertical usage?
select all objects, convert all objects to paths and merge all paths?
Thanks,
Pander

It is indeed very similar but for most of the characters I spot
differences in details and/or composition. Nice to see how certain
challenges have solved in there and how my font is doing that differently.

Thanks for looking it up.

Best,

Pander

Post by s***@att.net
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Pander

2017-01-12 18:55:52 UTC

Permalink

Post by Pander
Hi all,

...

Thanks for all advice so far. Looking at Bungee, I came up with the
following dimensions Loading Image...

After doing PANOSE classification for https://i.imgur.com/g5wHIxt.jpg it
turns out that this is Extra Black and the base of the glyphs are
square. Once I have sufficient glyphs, I will generate at least Black,
Heavy and Bold versions.

Inspection of the SVG revealed that working with paths is preferred as
the coordinates are directly accessible. Whereas objects such as rects
have a transformation matrix that needs to be applied before you get the
actual coordinates of the shape.

Coming back to the PANOSE classification using
http://monotype.de/services/pan4 I am not sure what to choose for Class
and Contrast.

Would Class be 2 Derivative or 5 Non-standard Aspect?

I can calculate ConRat, with some difficulty, to determine Contrast, but
see there is also 10 Horizontal Low, 11 Horizontal Medium and 12
Horizontal High for decorative fonts but I cannot find any documentation
on this. Would one of you happen to know what is meant with those and
which would apply to this font?

Thanks,

Pander